Mountain Biking Association of Dublin

Public Forum => Tech Talk - Public => Topic started by: ruth:D on 13, September, 2016, 11:57:54 AM

Title: 1x11 conversion
Post by: ruth:D on 13, September, 2016, 11:57:54 AM
Shimano XT 1 x11 groupset is looking pretty good value on chain reaction at the moment, so thinking of converting from slx 2 x 10.


So, wondering how big a change converting can make, will I miss my precious granny gears?
What's the consensus on teeth number for front, 30 32 34?


Title: Re: 1x11 conversion
Post by: Stephen McMullan on 13, September, 2016, 12:06:53 PM
Hi Ruth,

I have 1 x 10 on the Cotic BFe. 32t (oval btw) narrow wide up front and 11-36 on the back. Works well in the simplicity of the system. On some climbs there's no hiding...you're already in the lowest gear and the only answer is to push harder. Its good for you in the long run :-) Of course having the 11th ring on the back 40t or whatever would sort that. Think if I went for 11 rings on the back then I might chance 34t up front.

On the BigWig I have 2 x 10 26/36t up front and standard 11-36 on the back. Its quite comfortable on the long spins to drop down to the granny and I suddenly realised I missed it :-) However I do find myself unconsciously going back to "single ring mode" and just climbing on the 36t and then wondering why I'm creating a gap with some of the others but all the more tired for it. Guess its good training :-) Probably only getting away with that lark because its a 29er...
Title: Re: 1x11 conversion
Post by: muckwarrior on 13, September, 2016, 12:12:44 PM
My Strive is 34 + 10x42 and am never left wanting on the climbs. That said, the only time I'd ever use top gear is on a road going downhill so I don't think I'd have any spinning out problems with a 32 ring.

Definitely recommend it though. I've never ever dropped a chain.
Title: Re: 1x11 conversion
Post by: simonr on 13, September, 2016, 01:00:32 PM
Bit more way out here!

My 1x11 set up as it came has a 28 (yes twenty eight) at the front which was a real change from 34 on my previous 1x10 and I was highly sceptical.  Standard 10-42T on the back.

I have to say, I've been very pleasantly surprised at the range - the smallest gear is as easy as any granny if you need it. You need to spin a bit on the road, but can get around 40km/h before spinning out, which is more than I'd ever need on a MTB.

Converted!
Title: Re: 1x11 conversion
Post by: muckwarrior on 13, September, 2016, 01:30:51 PM
@simonr I presume yours being a 29er affects the range though? Like a 28 tooth with a 29" wheel is probably similar to a 30 on a 650b. Also, I don't think the range is quite as big on Shimano cassettes. They start at 11 AFAIK.
Title: Re: 1x11 conversion
Post by: simonr on 13, September, 2016, 01:41:19 PM
@muckwarrior yes it does as every wheel turn takes you further, crank length as well is a factor but I've never played with that.

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Title: Re: 1x11 conversion
Post by: krezi on 13, September, 2016, 03:36:59 PM
I have 32 up front with 11-42 at the rear and didn't miss a range so far. It's so much easier with no gear lever on the bar with just a dropper on the left side
Title: Re: 1x11 conversion
Post by: ruth:D on 14, September, 2016, 11:00:26 AM
Thanks for the advice lads. Looks like I'll be joining the converted soon.
Title: Re: 1x11 conversion
Post by: shortcut on 14, September, 2016, 11:03:26 AM
Shimano are bringing out / have brought out an 11-46 cassette.  It is heavier than the world but may be useful if you find yourself without a low enough gear.


I would suggest a 30 ring might make good sense if going for a 42.
Title: Re: 1x11 conversion
Post by: Craigsy on 14, September, 2016, 11:37:11 AM
11 Spd is the business. Simple and functional. Less things to go wrong. I've had no issues yet with mine. Have XT 11-42T out back, with a 34T up front and never left wanting. (on 165mm enduro bike)

Shimano have also brought the 11 Spd group out at SLX level if you want to keep costs down and meant to be just as good.
Title: Re: 1x11 conversion
Post by: Nidge on 14, September, 2016, 02:33:36 PM
I have 30 upfront and 42 out back on the big bike and it's fantastic. It would literally climb a wall. It makes the climb out of ewoks manageable and that says it all !
Title: Re: 1x11 conversion
Post by: Ratz on 14, September, 2016, 05:50:32 PM
I converted my anthem to 1 x 10 but added a 40T to the rear cassette when doing this so you need to remove a mid gear (17T) to fit this in but you don't miss the mid gear but gain a granny gear. I used a 32T chainring. I worked the gear ratios out and in the conversion I just lose the biggest granny gear versus the original 2 x 10. But this means you can keep your current shifter and your 10spd derailleur. It was quite a straight forward DIY conversion. Tune the gears and away you go. Would work out a lot cheaper than the whole 1 x 11 groupset and you are just down 1 granny gear... assuming your current kit is in good condition all you need is hope Chainring 60, hope expander ring 80 = conversion 140. It is a great job. I was thinking of 1*11 but this was a much more cost effective solution.
Title: Re: 1x11 conversion
Post by: BJE on 14, September, 2016, 09:54:20 PM
Hey!


I went down a similar route to Ratz, except I got a whole new cassette instead of an expander cog.


Had 10 speed (11-36) on my Nukeproof Mega for the last few months, with a 30t up front.


Just recently swapped out the cassette for this (http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/ie/en/sunrace-ms3-10-speed-shimano-sram-cassette/rp-prod149190) 10 speed (11-42t) cassette.


Only caveat was I had to change my rear derailleur too, swapping from a short cage to a medium cage to fit it.


Pretty happy so far with the cassette...early days yet though and don't know how long it will last, but should help with the longer, hillier spins!  :)
Title: Re: 1x11 conversion
Post by: ciarsciars on 14, September, 2016, 10:08:32 PM
Shimano are bringing out / have brought out an 11-46 cassette.  It is heavier than the world but may be useful if you find yourself without a low enough gear.


I would suggest a 30 ring might make good sense if going for a 42.
Keep your existing groupset, just swap front chainrings for a narrow wide 32, assuming you've a 36 on the back you should be fine for most stuff.

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Title: Re: 1x11 conversion
Post by: muckwarrior on 15, September, 2016, 08:41:01 AM


Keep your existing groupset, just swap front chainrings for a narrow wide 32, assuming you've a 36 on the back you should be fine for most stuff.

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Easy for you to say,  Mr Savagey McSavageface



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Title: Re: 1x11 conversion
Post by: ciarsciars on 15, September, 2016, 11:39:10 AM

Easy for you to say,  Mr Savagey McSavageface (https://emoji.tapatalk-cdn.com/emoji1.png)


Well maybe 30 up front then:) I guess it depends on the bike too and what kinda riding the OP will be doing.

Title: Re: 1x11 conversion
Post by: ruth:D on 16, September, 2016, 11:18:46 AM


Keep your existing groupset, just swap front chainrings for a narrow wide 32, assuming you've a 36 on the back you should be fine for most stuff.


Easy for you to say,  Mr Savagey McSavageface (https://emoji.tapatalk-cdn.com/emoji1.png)




Yeah, might take that one with a pinch of salt ;) As always there is alot more for me to understand about these things than would first appear!


I think I am going to have to toughen up the ol' legs either way but will be hoping not lose too much on the high end or the low end. Thinking 32 is a safe middle ground for me.


After swotting up: the cheaper option; could get a 32t Raceface n/w or absolute black oval assuming these will work on my current Raceface cranks. Stick with 10spd and get 11-42 Sunrace cassette. Same ratio that I would get spending another 200; whole new XT 11spd drivetrain BB included, 11-42 with 32t front ring.....hmmmm if I have to get a new derailleur too for 10spd cassette prob better changing over to 11spd?

Title: Re: 1x11 conversion
Post by: Stephen McMullan on 16, September, 2016, 12:25:38 PM
Jeez never occured to me that of course you need a 11 speed shifter and derailleur. Deffo sounds like a lot of faff and expense. I have a spare/old but still in great nick 32t narrow wide in the drawer at home. You can have it for free if you want to test out a single ring on your existing drive train.
Title: Re: 1x11 conversion
Post by: ruth:D on 16, September, 2016, 01:04:23 PM
Trying before buying probably a smart idea! That would be awesome Stephen. I'll probably struggle with my current cassette range but at least I would get a good idea of what I need.
Title: Re: 1x11 conversion
Post by: Stephen McMullan on 16, September, 2016, 01:08:16 PM
You won't struggle too badly. It'll be the same as what I have  ;) I'll put the ring in the car in case I see you at the trails. Or its available to collect from Blackrock or Dun Laoghaire
Title: Re: 1x11 conversion
Post by: DaveG on 16, September, 2016, 05:16:49 PM
I'd say you'll be fine with your existing mech Ruth, you're running a 2x10, so it must be at least a medium cage.

11-42 works fine on my hardtail with a zee (freeride version) short cage rear derailleur, borderline works on my fiends' full sus with the same derailleur, the 11-40 would probably be a safer bet for a full suss with a short cage mech (withough using modified cages or goatlinks). But for a medium/long cage mech, I don't think you'll have any problems.

Those sunrace casettes are very good, cheap as chips from Germany.
Steel: http://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/sunrace-ms3-10-speed-cassette-11-42-525613/wg_id-402 (http://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/sunrace-ms3-10-speed-cassette-11-42-525613/wg_id-402)
I think this one has one or two aluminium cogs, its lighter but less durable: http://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/sunrace-ms3-10-speed-cassette-11-42-525613/wg_id-402 (http://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/sunrace-ms3-10-speed-cassette-11-42-525613/wg_id-402)
Title: Re: 1x11 conversion
Post by: RobH on 14, November, 2016, 08:45:37 PM
It's time for me to replace the drivetrain on the canyon. I'm currently 3x10 22/30/40 SLX Crank and 11-36 Shimano Cassette. So if I'm reading things right I could buy a new narrow wide chainring and a sunrace cassette and have a pretty good range of gears on 1x10?


http://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/sunrace-ms3-10-speed-cassette-11-42-525613
http://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/race-face-chainring-narrow-wide-9-10-11-speed-104x34-black-137585



Am I right in thinking all this should be compatible? I don't need a new crank, I can just remove all chainrings and add the new narrowwide, remove front shifter and derailleur and then swap to the sunrace cassette?


thanks
Title: Re: 1x11 conversion
Post by: Kamba6 on 15, November, 2016, 09:36:35 AM
You may need to get some shorter chain ring bolts as those you have on the triple cranks are going to be too long.

New chain is also a good idea when replacing a cassette.


I would also consider a small top guide for added security. You'll be fine with the narrow wide ring initially, but when it wears out a bit retention won't be as good.
Title: Re: 1x11 conversion
Post by: Scrivo on 15, November, 2016, 09:53:13 AM
I see CRC have a full XT 10sp groupset (including brakes) for 300.


http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/ie/en/shimano-xt-m785-10sp-complete-double-groupset/rp-prod116657
Title: Re: 1x11 conversion
Post by: ruth:D on 15, November, 2016, 11:10:34 AM
It's time for me to replace the drivetrain on the canyon. I'm currently 3x10 22/30/40 SLX Crank and 11-36 Shimano Cassette. So if I'm reading things right I could buy a new narrow wide chainring and a sunrace cassette and have a pretty good range of gears on 1x10?


That is an option I looked at: keeping my 10spd and I would get the same ratio as going 11spd 11-42 cassette - the change between gears just slightly larger and perhaps slightly less smooth than 11spd. Should all be compatible for you... I'm no expert but 'chainline' might be a consideration to fine tune setup with spacers - I haven't done anything with mine and seems fine so far, but might look into further.


But I went for 11spd as needed a new derailleur anyway so got: xt 11-42 cassette, med derailleur + shifter, chain, raceface n/w 32 ring and all came in around €250 and it is sweeeeet! It's so quiet going downhill and no chain drops, woooohoooo!


After a trial run with Stephen's old ring on my 10spd setup, I struggled a bit on the climbs but was pretty confident that going up to 42 in the back and 32 on the front would be a good combo for me. I did find however that the chain dropped numerous times on spins, prob down to wear on all parts.
Title: Re: 1x11 conversion
Post by: RobH on 15, November, 2016, 11:14:06 AM
Cheers for the comments everyone. I'm trying to do things on the cheap which is why I didn't go for the deal on CRC. Chainring 20 from Superstar, Cassette 40 and chain 18 from Germany + 10 for delivery. For that kind of cash I'll give it a whirl and see how it goes. Interesting point about the top guard. Anyone else had problems as the chain ring wears? I also didn't realise about the bolts, I'll look into that some more. thanks
Title: Re: 1x11 conversion
Post by: AussieSteve on 15, November, 2016, 02:38:45 PM
I've gone without a top guide on my 1x10 (now updated to 1x11) drivetrain for the past 18-months.  The only time it drops is when your chain is basically completely worn out, and time to replace the whole drivetrain.

I now have three chains and rotate them - changing the chain each month.  Is it conceivable that a chain on a 1x setup wears quicker than on a double or triple?  That's what it seemed like to me, hence now investing in a couple of extra chains to get more life out of the cassette and chainring.

Get yourself at least one extra chain, swap them around every now and then and you should double the life of the drivetrain.
Title: Re: 1x11 conversion
Post by: WeekendWarrior on 15, November, 2016, 02:51:22 PM
Is it conceivable that a chain on a 1x setup wears quicker than on a double or triple? 


Are you using an 11-speed chain? A 10 speed chain will wear out an 11 speed cassette much faster as the gaps between rollers are slightly too big. (At least that's my understanding of it.)
Title: Re: 1x11 conversion
Post by: RobH on 15, November, 2016, 02:52:54 PM
Thanks Steve. I ordered a spare chain for this reason too. I seem to go through at least 1 drivetrain per year, which seems excessive, so this time I'll rotate the chain.
Title: Re: 1x11 conversion
Post by: AussieSteve on 15, November, 2016, 03:09:10 PM
Are you using an 11-speed chain? A 10 speed chain will wear out an 11 speed cassette much faster as the gaps between rollers are slightly too big. (At least that's my understanding of it.)
You could well be right.  But yes, I've always used the right chain with either 1x10 or 1x 11.  (I now have three 11-speed chains!)
Title: Re: 1x11 conversion
Post by: shortcut on 15, November, 2016, 04:19:17 PM
As I understand it: A ten speed chain won't work well with 11 speed cassette because it is too wide and simply won't work very well, this is more the width of the side plates on the chain than anything else.  The distance between the rollers is the same though hence why the chainrings between 11 and 10 speed or even 9 is fine when running single ring.
Title: Re: 1x11 conversion
Post by: CormacP on 15, November, 2016, 04:32:33 PM
Is it conceivable that a chain on a 1x setup wears quicker than on a double or triple? 


Are you using an 11-speed chain? A 10 speed chain will wear out an 11 speed cassette much faster as the gaps between rollers are slightly too big. (At least that's my understanding of it.)


I'm not sure that's actually the case, 11 and 10 speed chains have an identical distance between rollers/pins (explanation here (http://velonews.competitor.com/2016/01/bikes-and-tech/technical-faq/tech-faq-chain-width-explained-compatibility-queries-answered_392163), the term is "chain pitch"). "Chain width" refers to the distance between the side link plates, which definitely does change between 10 and 11 speed chains, but I'm not sure if that affects the rate of wear on a chain.
Title: Re: 1x11 conversion
Post by: muckwarrior on 15, November, 2016, 04:36:07 PM
I guess a 1x might wear faster than a 2x or 3x due to the fact that it's on the same chainring 100% of the time, meaning the chainring (and therefore the chain) would wear a bit faster.
Title: Re: 1x11 conversion
Post by: WeekendWarrior on 15, November, 2016, 04:57:21 PM
Is it conceivable that a chain on a 1x setup wears quicker than on a double or triple? 


Are you using an 11-speed chain? A 10 speed chain will wear out an 11 speed cassette much faster as the gaps between rollers are slightly too big. (At least that's my understanding of it.)


I'm not sure that's actually the case, 11 and 10 speed chains have an identical distance between rollers/pins (explanation here (http://velonews.competitor.com/2016/01/bikes-and-tech/technical-faq/tech-faq-chain-width-explained-compatibility-queries-answered_392163), the term is "chain pitch"). "Chain width" refers to the distance between the side link plates, which definitely does change between 10 and 11 speed chains, but I'm not sure if that affects the rate of wear on a chain.


Ah OK, I stand corrected!
Title: Re: 1x11 conversion
Post by: Liam Phelan on 16, November, 2016, 01:48:38 PM
I'm not sure that's actually the case, 11 and 10 speed chains have an identical distance between rollers/pins (explanation here (http://velonews.competitor.com/2016/01/bikes-and-tech/technical-faq/tech-faq-chain-width-explained-compatibility-queries-answered_392163), the term is "chain pitch"). "Chain width" refers to the distance between the side link plates, which definitely does change between 10 and 11 speed chains, but I'm not sure if that affects the rate of wear on a chain.


Jayzus. I have read that blog post several times now and I'm still struggling to grasp it. It need some illustrations I think. :-)
Title: Re: 1x11 conversion
Post by: simonr on 16, November, 2016, 04:11:57 PM
As I understand it: A ten speed chain won't work well with 11 speed cassette because it is too wide and simply won't work very well, this is more the width of the side plates on the chain than anything else.  The distance between the rollers is the same though hence why the chainrings between 11 and 10 speed or even 9 is fine when running single ring.
It's also why the tool for testing chain stretch works on any chain
Title: Re: 1x11 conversion
Post by: shortcut on 16, November, 2016, 04:17:31 PM
As I understand it: A ten speed chain won't work well with 11 speed cassette because it is too wide and simply won't work very well, this is more the width of the side plates on the chain than anything else.  The distance between the rollers is the same though hence why the chainrings between 11 and 10 speed or even 9 is fine when running single ring.
It's also why the tool for testing chain stretch works on any chain (https://emoji.tapatalk-cdn.com/emoji2.png)


And Chains don't actually stretch (well they sort of do but really they don't) - the pins wear which means that there is both more lateral and longtitudinal movement in the chain around the pins giving it additional length but the side plates don't get longer.  Sorry - not a great explanation. :-\
Title: Re: 1x11 conversion
Post by: Stephen McMullan on 15, January, 2017, 02:52:50 PM
Think my side plate got a bit shorter or longer today depending on how you look at it

 (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170115/0c2adb5817a098326f13538b2bb75fe3.jpg)
Title: Re: 1x11 conversion
Post by: LeahMc on 16, January, 2017, 09:05:09 AM
I've just got mine switched from 3x10 to 1x10. Was able to manage Carrick with it over the weekend. If you see me totally struggling on the Tuesday evening spins it's probably because I'm missing my granny ring, lol.
Title: Re: 1x11 conversion
Post by: Stephen McMullan on 16, January, 2017, 01:12:14 PM
It makes things much simpler Leah. Much easier to shift into the correct gear as the trail changes. Its a right pain shifting the front ring when you're in the middle of some technical stuff and trying to concentrate. Also you've lost some weight off the bike and less cabling so it'll all look neater on the bars. What size ring did you go for up front?

My Cotic drivetrain is shot (April 2015 apparently  ::) ) but I'm sticking with 1x10 on that. Gonna replace the 32t oval absoluteBLACK ring on the front with same and gonna try out the SunRace 42-11 cassette mentioned above for the craic - there are a few hills where the 32t x 36 ring was seriously testing my legs on the 26" wheels with heavy knobbly DH tires and I was losing form to compensate (rolling my hips and shoulders) so its a bit too heavy at times. I can push it but its hard work.

Seriously thinking about the SLX or XT 1x11 complete drivetrain for the Ragley when the new frame arrives.